too bad none of those people are streaming gaga's music. and a fandom can't generate 9 billion streams a year themselves please, Taylor's success is extremely organic streaming wise. she's not that big in some markets like France and Italy, she's utterly massive in the anglosphere and most of Asia and the Middle East tho.

Where I live most people know gaga for A Star Is Born only, most TF/TFM songs aren't even recognizable to people in my generation (gen z) while Taylor has been relevant ever since 2012 and every release of hers sans evermore has been making traditional media headlines.
we could all judge these people's careers based on our own small community.
the bigger picture is obvious when you check global data. and that is Taylor doesn't have one nor two nor three but up to 7 highly consumed albums. when it comes to Gaga all that she has essentially is TFM. Born This Way does awful numbers considering its initial success, ARTPOP, CTC and Joanne all add up to a pathetic ~0.6m daily streams. ASIB while massive its success is mostly due to the movie itself not Gaga's Star Power, Chromatica has Ariana Grande and Blackpink in it, pretty much the only reason it has done better than Katy Perry's and Demi Lovato's latest releases.

the second you used terms like "------- is OVER" your whole point is worthless cause you're just a stan

But it is over, she's not dominant anymore, she has to fight Justin for streams now.

What's not clicking?
You can't seem to accept justin is as big as her or even bigger than her now in Asia.

It's petty.

BTW I Stan Madonna and Michael Jackson.

i never said he's not as big in Asia, he clearly is.
and two people can be both simultaneously dominant, just because Justin is competing doesn't mean Taylor's dominance is over, both of them are dominating the Asian market in comparison to their peers

Is that Phillipines?
Gagas debut sold as much as Fearless there.

As I said Gaga is not as popular anymore, hence why she doesn't get streamed as much but she is still far more known than Taylor.

And fans can generate how many streams they want. Taylor has a very devoted fanbase. They are obsessed with her and will do anything for her, even buy 8 different copies of the same album.

If taylor got 15B streams in a single year, I wouldn't be surprised.

Madonna is definitely more known yes , it’s a fact and even more known than gaga .. she’s way ahead of both but gaga isn’t ahead of Taylor at all … Taylor at her prime as celebrity was more known, and for healthy amount of time .. while with all factual insight available it’s pretty clear gaga’s hype lasted for 3-4 years .. if as u said she was all that more known her new releases should make more noise or do well but the picture is way different .. and yes gaga is more known in france than Taylor but is it the end point ??? Does being widely known in france where gaga is recently not even selling well any better than Taylor being known more than gaga in many more countries???

I'm from Algeria (North Africa)

and I'm not gonna engage in this argument anymore since I'm busy and have more important things to do than to discuss which millionaire outsold the other

That’s not how streaming works. People aren’t presented with a picture of taylor and a picture of Justin and agonize over who to pick. This entire conversation your entire point was Taylor is irrelevant in Asia. Your exact words were “as not many people in Europe, South America, or parts of Asia, know who Taylor is. She lacks true hits to break these markets.” Categorically untrue, I encourage you to browse Spotifycharts top artist charts it’s a great resource so see Taylors globally popularity in each country.

And none of Justin Bieber's success in Asia negatively affects Taylor Swift's success in Asia, nor does it change the very real prospect of her surpassing Mariah Carey's & Celine Dion's CSPC units, if not even Madonna's.

And that's what started this whole conversation in the first place and is what bothered you to begin with.
In your own words: "What’s definite is that she will never outsell Madonna". Fast forward a few days and MJD himself is saying "She has very decent chances of coming after Madonna too".

It's time for you to accept that your opinion isn't so definitive after all and that Taylor Swift will end up very high on this site's Top Artists list, no matter what. How high, no one can tell for certain.
What is certain however is to definitely not rule her out.

Does it matter? Like you can have your objective opinion Gaga is more well know but Taylor is outstreaming her like 3x over on Spotify, and again the original discussion is not about some analysis of who is more well known, it is simply who will come out on top in CSPC.

So bad bunny got 10 billion, he must also have just fans ! Right?? Ur logic is as incompetent as gaga is in selling her albums nowadays … how come if people know gaga more than no one is bothering to stream her ???? And what are you basing that Taylor gets streamed 9 bn because of just fans ?? Does that mean Taylor got more fans than whole audience of gaga ??? Oh that’s an achievement than .. and i don’t consider having more fans anything bad .. gaga couldn’t maintain her fanbase while Taylor did … so seemingly people related to her music more and still do .. Gaga’s whole discography is doing 5.7-5.5 million while being out streamed by much less big artist like lana del rey .. so it’s not really fans or anything it’s just she has almost declined ..

Justin got ahead of her cuz of his recent collabs and hits and i can assure if Taylor release something more mainstream and less folklore type she will rebound … and justin still has way far to catch up .. and if u ever see his stats his album tracks are doing so badly which makes it seem his whole albums are derived off singles which is not bad but yes it does say audience isn’t getting into your album .. while with Taylor story is different… he’s surely competing with her there not just competing he’s even beating her in this in some places but that’s doesn’t make anything into someone’s dominance being over

How’s if justin on par with her but he’s successful while Taylor is over??? Have u even ever checked Spotify charts or Apple Music ?? If u do you will see beside his recent album all others are far away from anything to successful except maybe purpose .. Taylor just need another mainstream album.. but just to say i don’t think Taylor is going to get ahead of justin .. why because she has moved on far from her pop eras and is releasing more low key sounds that barely ever will give her hits .. but that doesn’t saddens me if anything it’s an achievement she’s competing in such genre with Justin.. with every new album after folklore she’s moving away and away from sounds that will register her hits anymore and that’s what she wants

Gaga is more known in Europe and South America. Few people know Taylor there.

Taylor still can't break these markets. It doesn't matter if Gaga is a flop now, Madonna is a flop too, but everyone knows her.

Gaga lost a lot of fans, but she is still more well known around the general public than Taylor.

Yes taylor has more fans than Gaga, but that has nothing to do with general public which you guys don't seem to understand what general public even is it seems.

Taylor never had a concert in Europe except in the UK, Ireland, Germany and Netherlands. Why? Because she's just not well known in the continent.

istg here in latam except brasil gaga has not been as relevant as taylor rn in YEARS
red tv and all too well (10 min version) did wonders

Again the original conversation is about who will get more CSPC so where is the relevancy in touring stats?

It shows how not many people know Taylor in Europe despite her streams.

In regards to CSPC its Taylor because she has a lot of fans in English countries where most albums and units are sold.

So glad we are in agreement that Taylor will probably eventually move more CSPC than Madonna, lovely speaking to you.

I never said she is irrelevant, I said she didn't break through some Asian countries which is true because she's flopping in South Korea, but she's big in most Asian countries. I never said she isn't.

In Europe and Latin America though, she has issues.

It's my opinion she won't outsell Madonna, I don't know why it bothers you so much.

Taylor Swift fans sure have insecurities.

I never said she is over, just not dominant because there are others as successful as her or even more successful than her.

BTW Justin has 90 million units with 6 albums vs Taylor's 108.8 million with 9 albums. Justin is more successful actually per album.

Maybe check your own insecurities first.

Let's not forget that it was you who brought up Madonna in a conversation where she wasn't even mentioned.

You clearly are bothered by Taylor Swift when you make the effort of visiting her CSPC page, going through her comment sections and bringing up someone who wasn't even referenced in the comment you replied to.

And Shania Twain is more successful per album than both of these artists if we go by average units per album.

Does that suddenly mean that she's bigger than them?
Of course not, because Chartmasters ranks artists based on their total units and not based on averages.

Not only that, but Taylor Swift's units per studio album are actually higher than Justin Bieber's. You are re-distributing Bieber's orphan units to his albums when there's a reason they're called orphan; they don't belong to any album.

So in terms of total units, as well as your own metric of average units per album, Taylor Swift is still ahead for now, so I don't get where you're trying to go with this.

This constant discrediting of her success on your part is really starting to get weird…

No offense but I agree that Jake's obsession to undermine Taylor's current success is getting weird, serving stan Twitter behavior. Most of his arguments are baseless with no stat or data supporting them, just personal bias and feeling instead of pure fact.

Nobody mention Madonna since she's ahead of others right now yet he was the one who brought her here, sigh talking about insecurities. To sum up, it's pretty obvious that Taylor will surpass Whitney and Babra based on current rate (12M-15M CPSC/year) considering she has another four rerecords and possibly new studio albums too. She's most likely a threat to Mariah and Celine too if her momentum gets stronger with each upcoming release. By end of the decade then we can assume whether she can challenge Madonna. It's too soon to discuss about it.