Lover had no smash hits and yet its outstreaming thank u, next, which had two of the biggest female smashes in the past couple of years by a margin of over 500,000, and has been inching closer and closer to the daily streams of WWAFA, one of the biggest female albums of the streaming era. Similarly, folklore routinely garners more streams than any other 2020 album with the exception of Future Nostaglia, which infamously is more a greatest hits playlist rather than a proper album at this point. Big hits are helpful, but aren't necessary. This is has been a fact that has ALWAYS been on Taylor's side. Neither Speak Now nor her debut had anything close to resembling a smash but both racked up 10m+ CSPC. True Ariana and Rihanna have bigger albums, but neither has an album that is gaining more streams than 1989, in fact ANTI is only doing HALF of what 1989 is on Spotify. It's been nearly two months since the release of Red TV, and Taylor is STILL doing well over 30m Spotify streams a day. This is steaming full speed ahead, and unfortunately the pitiful streaming numbers of the top 5 girls sans Mariah for 1 month of the year don't really stand a chance in the current state of the music industry.

It's funny to me that people said she has no commercial albums since 1989 yet her CSPC since that obliterate the other female artists by far. Lover has no big hits unlike Ariana's TUN yet both albums are comparable in CSPC in fact the former pull more units nowadays than the later. Why people acting like Lover, folklore, evermore are colossal flops when in reality they are one of the most successful albums for past few years.

It is general knowledge that Taylor can pull amazing number despite no hit, she's an anomaly. If having no hits is that bad then, why she succeeded to pull 9B+ streams on Spotify alone in 2021. If anything she gained like 13-15M units CSPC last year and will keep consistently doing it in 2022, 2023, 2024 and so on considering we have another 4 rerecords + potential new studio albums. Her momentum is getting stronger and she won't stop anytime soon. By end of 2020s, she most likely will gain another 80M-100M CSPC, bringing her total CSPC to close or more than 200M. At this rate, she obviously will surpass Whitney and Babra no question unless you guys have data suggesting those artists can keep the gap.

This is not delusional post but I also can see that Taylor can be a threat to Mariah and Celine. Both artists do not really have impressive recurrent streams. Yeah, I'm aware of All I Want for Christmas is You yearly resurgent but the big question is, is it enough to counter Taylor's current daily 30M+ streams on Spotify? And this is not including other streaming platforms. Honestly, it's not Taylor who needs commercial albums/songs considering she's doing fine with her "underperformed" post-1989 era but Whitney, Babra, Mariah, Celine who need them more to sustain the gap otherwise they get surpassed by her.

If people have issue or disagreement with my points then you guys are welcome to debunk it but please bring number, stats and facts instead of personal feeling.

even reputation which is considered her flop era is outstreaming thank u next on Spotify and charring in markets like the UK while tun isn't

Dua has two albums bigger than any Taylor album past 1989. She's much bigger than Taylor.

Billie and Olivia have a bigger album than Taylor after the 1989.

Adeles 30 is going to be bigger than any Taylor album past 1989.

Anyone who thinks Taylor is not out of prime are deluded. She has her moment now with her re recordings which boost her streams but that's it.

No hits is tarnishing her career, as not many people in Europe, South America, or parts of Asia, know who Taylor is. She lacks true hits to break these markets, and she will end up like Fleetwood Mac it seems (known in some countries only).

One reason why Taylor will struggle to reach Madonna or Celine, is because she is NOT global like them. Mariah struggled too as her sales were poor in Europe and South America compared to Celine and Madonna. Whitney only released 7 albums during her prime, hence she never had a shot at Madonna or Celine, but she was GLOBAL.

I think Taylor will end up with Mariah sales in the end if her next studio albums sell decently, but Mariah is at least known more than Taylor.

It was only released to give her a number 1 album, single, and sales boost otherwise she would have struggled to outsell Rihanna, let alone Britney.

Evermore was a sales tactic basically.

What isn't clicking. It doesn't matter if artists have albums outselling Taylor, Taylor as an ARTIST is outselling them all by far. To say 30, and album only out for a month and a half, and is already about to dip below 50k units on the BB200 will outsell reputation is a laughable claim.

Nobody knows her in Asia but on her heatmap she outperforms her peers incredibly, the only person who rivals her Chinese power is Justin, and she rules the Philippines.

Were her studio albums the biggest international blockbusters? no. But she has recognizable hits, and streaming platforms have given her a known catalogue.

Yup totally right. I bet Taylor Swift logged into chartmasters.org and she was like darn i need to pull some gimmick to pull ahead of Britney and Rihanna! Nice!

You were talking about her albums, so I pointed how there are female artists with bigger albums than hers since 2017.

And I said in some Asian markets, taylor is nobody in South Korea for example. Adele and Justin are doing far better than her in Asia atm, especially Justin who is huge in Asia atm.

And a few hits don't make her global, public don't know her. Again, she will never reach the same status as Mariah or Madonna, or even Gaga, because they are known everywhere, not like Taylor.

She did it for her billboard stats. It's obvious, she didn't even promote that album lol.

So what is the answer? Is she so desperate for sales why wouldn’t she have promoted any of her last 2 albums or 2 re-recordings like studio albums if she was as chart hungry as you say?

Adele most certainly isn't doing better than Taylor in Asia, when Taylor is outstreaming Adele currently in basically every Asian country where Spotify is available, including in South Korea.

Also I don't know why Gaga is even brought up in this conversation when she's not only dozens of millions units behind Taylor Swift, but also has no prospect of ever catching up to her, considering how Lady Gaga is only the 64th most streamed artist on Spotify right now.
Being known everywhere is good, but ideally it would also translate into consumption.
"The public don't know her", yet when we look at who the public is actually listening to on Spotify, Taylor Swift is always in the upper echelons in most countries.

And it's true that there have been female artists with bigger albums than Taylor Swift in recent years, but 1. Taylor Swift's recent albums are still reaching healthy units and 2. her strength isn't based on the performance of her most recent albums but how her catalogue as a whole is performing. And in that regard, she faces little competition.

So while singular albums of hers aren't reaching the units of 1989 anymore, her catalogue itself is gaining units faster than ever before.
And with streaming continuing to grow ever year, her catalogue grows alongside it.
That is what's most certainly going to put her in front of Barbra Streisand and Whitney Houston, with Mariah Carey and Celine Dion also being within reach (although personally, I'm skeptical about her surpassing Madonna).

I said charts. She doesn't care about sales, just number ones in the US. The re recording project is a great way of achieving what she wants.

BTW those epic discounts on her singles and releasing 8x versions of her singles shows she is obsessed with charts.

Spotify Artist Charts (Weekly)

Global:

Taylor - #1
Justin - #7
Gaga - #59

Philippines

Taylor - #1 (for a 9th consecutive week)
Justin - #4
Gaga - #64

Malaysia

Taylor - #2
Justin - #3
Gaga - #91

Singapore

Taylor #1
Justin #3
Gaga #60

Thailand

#2 Taylor
#4 Justin
#173 Gaga

India

#24 Justin
#30 Taylor
Out - Gaga

Hong Kong

#10 Justin
#11 Taylor
#72 Gaga

Turkey

#49 Taylor
#169 Justin
OUT - Gaga

Career digital album sales in China

Taylor - 8.1m
Justin - 1.8m (career albums less than Taylor Swift's Lover)

It's funny, it seems that you're actually mistaken and Taylor is ahead of Justin in most of Asia! This can also be solidified if we refer to the "biggest streaming debuts by countries article." If you want we can walk through every continent, but to save you some time, Taylor ranks ahead of Justin and Adele in Brazil, The US, Australia, Canada, The UK, and yes even in some continental European countries like Spain, Austria. Again you keep making claims without a shred of numbers to support them.

Hi Jake!

You are missing the point. There's no need of the 'whole world' coming under the IFPI. The IFPI does not add up charts and sales from every country, they do it for no country at all, not even the US.

They simply ask the labels their top sellers according to some formula, that they don't communicate to the public, and show the rank once they merged lists of all labels. Considering their recent publications, they don't even dare to verify that labels picked up the correct data type.

Hi Tom!

Certainly you can't say someone is incorrect and purposedly cherry-pick data the way you do.

You say that Justin sold less in China than Taylor with Lover alone. That's true, but until Lover had sold most of its units he had yet to release for sale a single album there. His first was Changes, Justice his second. They sold 822k and 971k, on top of 724k singles from the latter, and that's despite the fact they were taken off from sales months ago. One may cherry-pick the over way around and say that all his albums sold more than Taylor's last (evermore) and more than her rerecordings combined. Both are super successful in China.

In the same way, you purposedly ignore countries that do not fit your narrative. You overlook SK, where Justin is at 3, Taylor at 9. He is also ahead in Indonesia, in Taiwan, etc.

No need to mention that his album is much, much older than Red TV, which is the most obvious cherry pick you do deciding to focus on current weekly stats only. The way he matches / top her in many countries is actually incredible.

There are no comparison at all between both acts from me. Just pointing out that your dismiss of Justin's popularity was widely inaccurate.

SK isn’t a relevant market on Spotify, either way this entire thread was about Taylors popularity relative to other female artists, and was also more to showcase that she is in fact relevant in Asia. Even bringing Justin into the conversation didn’t bring value to the original discussion. Trying to undercut taylors global popularity beyond 2014 is nonsensical.

Hi Nevermind!

Only a few small points as it's getting late where I am 🙂

1) Taylor hasn't got a crossover hit in years, nothing grants that she will ever be able to get new ones
2) Crossover hits may not be needed in a moment in time, but in the long run they are key to keep a catalog alive
3) Taylor is still barely 32, it would be crazy to assume she can't have hits anymore
4) If I had to bet, I would say she will still get at least one new era with a large hit on it
5) People tend to overstate or understate her success depending on where they stand, as her success differs vastly from a country to another
6) No, not saying she is local
7) Nobody is wrong or delusional for saying she did insane numbers in the US since her beginning. If anything, what she (and Drake) did since her (their) debut, is understated, she is utterly massive from an historical point of view.
8) Her catalog is incredibly strong, and her rerecordings are doing wonders
9) There are still 2 busy years to come
10) The way she is doing 30 millions streams daily right now doesn't grant she will do it forever
11) Had we got streams in the 90s, Madonna too would have got crazy daily streams in some periods
12) Considering her ongoing strength, I do consider Taylor to be virtually ahead of Barbra and Whitney, as in cycling. What it means is that if all female singers stop their career now, she will still organically move ahead at some point
13) She is very close, and may be able to confirm it in the next two years, to pull virtually ahead of Mariah too.
14) Other factors, that are not her own future recordings, may affect where she ultimately lands
15) One of these factors are market sizes. She has the chance / the benefit of being massive in countries that will be more and more important in upcoming years (= in Asia)
16) In a long run race against Celine, nothing is done
17) In that same long run race against Celine, Taylor is already the favorite
18) She has very decent chances of coming after Madonna too
19) It won't mean she would be more widely recognized, but that she sold the most (if that happens obviously)
20) Nobody can blame her for working hard. She is dedicated to chart and sell well? Better for her, blame others for not doing as much as her
21) Madonna herself got there for working harder / longer than many of her peers. Career totals do depend on how much effort was put in by an artist
22) These races 'against' other artists are for fun. Keep in mind all these artists are super mega successful. It's absurd to make fun or call flop someone like this, it would be like calling Bernard Arnault or Jeff Bezos flops just because Elon Musk's networth is now estimated as the highest. How silly would that be?

Ok, time to go to bed!

I fully agree with you MJD, your analysis is very on point, professional and unbiased. keep up the good work and thank you for dedicating your time to this website!

and guys don't take these chart/sales arguments too seriously we're all here to enjoy being data nerds lol 🙂

Love how MJD debunked your bias. Shows Taylor isn't as big in Asia as you think she is neck to neck with Justin now, and if he releases a new album, he is getting ahead of her.

Taylor's dominance in Asia is OVER.

Her fans are listening on Spotify, not the public. She only had like 2 crossover hits, the public does not know who Taylor is unless you are in the US or so.

Gaga is much less streamed, but she is far more recognised than Taylor as she has been a much bigger hit maker than Taylor and her image is far more recognised.

And what proof do you offer? What source claims that Lady Gaga is more recognizable? Your feelings?

And if you think the public isn't listening to Taylor Swift on Spotify, then why are you even browsing this website? Because the entire point of CSPC is to estimate consumption through official music formats and services, of which Spotify is a major part of. If you discredit Spotify and think the public isn't using it, then there's really no point to engage in discussions here quite frankly.

Bottom line is, Spotify is used by millions of people worldwide. And these millions of people are streaming Taylor Swift far more than Lady Gaga. So it seems like Lady Gaga's supposed superior popularity / recognizability isn't translating to objective data.

You claimed he was far bigger turns out he isn’t, so quite clearly from the stats I listed her dominance is nowhere near ‘OVER’. Additionally MJD really compared the stats of changes to the re-recording, when the re-recordings were released after Chinese platforms started reducing mass buying of pure sales, I thought he would know better. If you had brought a single number into the conversation throughout this entire thread besides making outlandish claims I debunk maybe he would have something to comment on.

And where in MJD's post did it say that Taylor Swift herself isn't big in Asia?
Especially when in his other post just below this, under point 15, he admits that she's massive in Asian countries.

There's quite a big gap between saying something like "Justin Bieber is massive in Asia too" and "Taylor's dominance in Asia is OVER", it's time for you to realize that.

I never said Taylor isn't big in Asia, where did I say it?

But Justin is at least on par with her if not bigger, so she is not the dominant artist there anymore. It's simple to understand.

Taylor has millions of fans listening to her on Spotify. Why do you think general public are listening to her too? They might be, but they are in the minority.

Lady Gaga uses to have hits absolutely everywhere, and she was far more popular and known than Taylor was and is. She is not as popular now, but people still know gaga from her hey days where she was massive everywhere.

It's the same with Madonna, Taylor outstreams her by a lot, but Madonna is much more known around the world. Why?

You can go to Brazil or France, and ask random people who Taylor and Gaga is, and you will see the difference in reactions.